Episode 12 Little Jack Horner

 In Episode 12: Who knew "Little Jack Horner" had such a rich and interesting history? Gina explores the rich history behind the nursery rhyme "Little Jack Horner," and its connection to plums, lead, and thievery. Give it a listen today. 

Transcript

  

 Hello and welcome to episode number 12 of a A Tisket-Tasket Podcast I'm your host, Gina, and today we're going to be talking about " "Little Jack Horner"." Now, I picked this nursery rhyme because last week we talked about "Little Miss Muffet" and there seemed to have been a trend in nursery rhymes in around the mid 18th century that focused on little blank, blank. So "Little Miss Muffet," "Little Polly Parrot," ""Little Jack Horner"." And to be honest, when I did the research for the podcast this week, I thought that ""Little Jack Horner"" was going to fall along the same lines as in, it's going to be fairly simple to research it's going to talk more about the trends of little miss or a little Mr. Et cetera, et cetera. But when I really sat down to research this, I was surprised just how much researchers had to say about this nursery rhyme. Which is what we're going to be talking about this week on the "Tisket-Tasket" Podcast. 

  



 "Little Jack Horner" has a Roud Folk Song Index Number of 13,027. It was first documented in print in Mother Goose's Melody in 1765.  The melody most commonly associated with this rhyme was composed by nursery rhyme collector, James William Elliott in a book that I have mentioned many times on this podcast and that is his National Nursery Rhymes and Nursery Songs in nursery songs, which was published in 1870. 

But this nursery rhyme is probably older than the 18th century. The Opies as well as other researchers suggest that it's probably from around the 16 hundreds area, the early 16 hundreds.  The earliest print references was from Namby Pamby pMB, which is a satire by Henry Carey, which was published in 1725. In which he uses lines from "Little Jack Horner" as part of a satire. And he says, "Now he sings of Jackie Horner, sitting in a chimney corner, eating of a Christmas pie putting in his thumb.  putting on  his thumb pulling out. Oh, strange a plum." So get, this is probably one of those instances where this nursery arrive, appeared in print much later than it did in oral tradition that it was passed down and a lot, like other nursery rhymes, it was actually used as satire. In the written word before it was probably recorded as a nursery rhyme. 

Now, when I was reading my entry for Opie and Opie, as I do each week, I was very surprised to see that they had quite a bit to say about this. And one of the interesting things is that they had a lovely block print  of the history of Jack Warner containing the Woody pranks. He played from his youth to his ripper years. Being pleasant for winter evenings. "And it's a, it's a block print and it shows. Jack Horner. Which is appears to be like a puppeteer. It looks like, and it says printed and sold in Alberni church yard, Brown Lane London. A chapter-book history of Jack Warner printed in 1770. And it's from the British museum. I'm going to try to track down this print if I can online so I could post it to the blog. But it appears that "Little Jack Horner" may have a history referencing an actual person. 

 The Opies write:  " The legend, which has gained currency during the past century is that the original Jack Horner was steward to Richard Whiting last of the Abbott's of Glastonbury. The story goes that at the time of disillusion, The Abbot perhaps hoping to appease king Henry the eighth sent his sewer to London with a Christmas gift. A pie in which we're hidden the title deeds of 12 manors. On the journey, Jack Horner's said to open the pie and extracted the deeds of The Manor of Mell's.. However, this may be. is the fact that one, a Thomas Horner took up residence at Mel's soon after the disillusion and his descendants live there to this day." 

Well, what a great way to inherit a manor right? Like, Hey, go take this to the king or the president. Oh, I'll just, I'll just sneak a piece for me. It's just a, a deed to a giant fancy house. But never the less the Opie's continue: 

" With the Horner family say is that the ancestor bought the manor together with several other manors in neighboring farms for 1,831 pounds. They point out the John Leland confirms that Mr. Horner half bought the Lordship of the king in his itinerary, 1543. Furthermore, they say that the rhyme has nothing to do with their ancestor. And it is part of a long merriment called the history of Jack Horner containing the witty pranks he played from his youth to his ripper years, being pleasant for winter evenings. 

Not only was their ancestors named Tom, not Jack, but the character sits in the corner is here specifically described as being only 13 inches high. And is living near London. The history of Jack Horner formed one of the favorite productions of the chapter book printers and the latter half of the 18th century. The earliest dated copy being issued in 1764 and this metrical tale divided  into six chapters begins. Jack Horner was a pretty lad near London he did dwell his father's heart. He made full glad his mother loved him well, 

From line 21 still in the first chapter, it proceeds. When friends, they did meet to pass away the time. Why little Jack could be sure eat his Christmas pie and rhyme. And said Jack Horner in the corner eats good Christmas pie and what this thumb pulls out the plums and says, good boy, am I. It will be noted that the traditional lines are exceedingly awkward. They fit even more awkwardly into the piece as a whole having no bearing on the story. And in fact, they impede the narrative. 

It seems clear that they have been dragged in probably as a peg on which to hang the tale this is the tradition of chapter book literature. A number of the more popular nursery rhymes have been similarly extended as an example of Jack Sprat. Indeed. The traditional rhyme has found several decades earlier in the chapter book history, it being quoted in 1725 by Henry Carey and his namby-pamby ballot, which is what I've talked about earlier. 

So the Opies continue to say that it appears that Carey wasn't quoting from the chapter book version. But from a rhyme that was similar if not identical to the one note today. 

And that the chapter book is in fact, apart from the pie, instead from a rhyme that we know taken from the old tale of the fryer and the boy, which is around 15 20, Which in term emanates from the more ancient Jack in his StepDame and includes part of the tale of basin, which is from 1340 of all things. 

It may be added that from the historical angle, that there is no objections to the short rhyme, having originally referred to the Horner ancestor. Glastonbury at the beginning of the 1539 was the only religious house in Somerset left untouched. And it was the richest Abbey in the kingdom. When Abbott Whiting was on trail for his life Thomas Horter was a member of the complainant's jury which condemned him. It is admitted that Horner benefit from being a King's man in the local people may very well have had their own ideas about how he acquired his estates. And then they comment that there is something there is a reference in Sommershire that is as old as 1680, which talks about the Horner. Ancestors saying that Hopton Horner Smith and Thyme when Abbots went out, they came in. Horner's name it is true was Thomas but that is now anybody might be called Jack, particularly if he was believed to be a Knave. I love that. So like, think about it. It's like, okay. You're kind of a nave. Your nickname is, is now Jack. Like. I think it's kind of interesting that at the time, culturally, this is kind of, the thing to do is to kind of rename your first name depending on either your profession. 

For example, I'm thinking of John Coachman or kind of your disposition. So if you were, if you're a bit of a nave, you may have been called Jack, which, which we know from the Horner's ancestry. If they're stealing deeds from the manors in the Kings pie. Then that's probably a good name to call them. Huh? 

It is on record also that in the revelent period of Whiting several times at Christmas gifts to the king, in the story of a special present being set concealed under a pie crust is not so preposterous as it may seem. I think it's quite preposterous. Can you imagine like FedExing a pie to someone and being like, well, I guess like, if you think about it, like the legend of like  the nail file and like the cake that you're going to send to a prison. But can you imagine if that were like still a case it's like, Hey mom, I'm going to send you a birthday card. It's going to be in a, in a raspberry PI. I think we should bring this tradition back. I wonder how, how much it is to FedEx, a pie to someone. 

Email me, if you, if you know. 

In the 16th century, some surprising things found their way into pies. Another example of a nursery rhyme of this is Sing a Song of Sixpence, which I haven't talked about yet, but I have done some research on it and it seems, it seems pretty silly. I I'd like to do more research on it. It may be stressed over it, that the legend, which now has become so firmly attached to the rhyme has not been found in print before the 19th century. 

Which, you know, mean, that's not to be surprising.  I've talked a lot about in this podcast about when nursery rhyme for first published and it seems to be. That nursery rhymes werent really written down and published until the 18th century. So this seems to be a case, like, for example, when I talk about Hickory Dickory dock or even London bridge, 

That the story of this nursery rhyme may very well predate its publication. And. I think it's quite interesting that this could reference a mischievous or Someone, I can't quite think of the word, like taking advantage of a good situation to steal a deed from a pie.  

When I did a little bit more research. I was really curious to know where the plum came from in the poem, because I can understand if the nursery rhymes talking about removing. Deed or removing something from a pie, but where did the plum come from? And what I did some genealogy research on Thomas Horner because yes, that's where this podcast takes me. 

Apparently. It was suggested that the Manor properties included lead mines in PennDOT Hills. In the plum is a pun on Latin plum bum. P L U M B U M for led. 

So again, what I love about nursery rhymes and this appears in previous nursery rhymes as well, is that they often are punny. I'm thinking a is for apple pie. And so it's certainly not a stretch at all that if this is referencing Thomas Horner, the Knave Jack. Then it's probably not a stretch that it's a pun on the Latin for a lead, which is just fascinating. I think today I learned that the nursery rhyme. "Little Jack Horner" is on a pun for lead. And again, I think this is. One of the most fascinating things. I keep saying that the most fascinating things about nursery rhymes are blah, blah, blah. But really it's, it's very interesting that nursery rhymes can contain puns or contain references that are completely lost on today's audience. For example, very few people are going to understand the pun if it's upon from a Latin word, Or very few, very few people are going to understand or remember the life and deeds of one Thomas Horner. However. More than a few people are going to remember the nursery rhyme, "Little Jack Horner". And I certainly remember it from my childhood. So this is yet another instance in which the literature stays with the context does not. 

Which I think is a fascinating aspect of nursery rhymes and an interesting aspect of literary criticism that may be lost to time, because I think it's. I think it's easy to, oh my gosh, I'm going on a tangent here, but bear with me. So I'm currently reading Moby Dick by Herman Melville, and this is a long novel and I think it's really easy to think about how contexts are lost in long novels. So for example, we don't do whaling anymore. And so Melville's long chapter's on whale anatomy is lost to a lot of those contexts and that's kind of easier to grasp. But nursery rhymes, get away with kind of losing their context a little bit easier and we don't really think about it because they are so short and easy to remember. And that's what I, that's why I really think that nursery rhymes have this longevity over some of these longer tomes not to say that, you know, Herman Melville, or Shakespeare. Whatever hasn't been read, but I would argue that more people know the nursery or I'm "Little Jack Horner" than they know Herman Melville. And so that's just a little tidbit from kind of my mind about nursery rhymes. And again, why they're just so important to learn. And I'm not saying that everybody needs to understand or learn the context of Mr. Thomas Horner behind "Little Jack Horner", but I think it is important to continue to keep these stories alive. Even maybe if they're the true, you know, the truth has been lost. Because it is an aspect of history that I think could be easily lost and nursery rhymes are an easier way to keep the history alive okay. That was a bit of a side tangent. I will continue on about the history of "Little Jack Horner".  

  



 Continuing on with the historical aspect of "Little Jack Horner". and the Mel's manor in which perhaps this deed was removed from a pie. I did quickly look up to see if Mel's Manor was still thing. And apparently it is. And if you look up pictures of it, it's absolutely fascinating.  It's in Somerset and they said that, you know, it was built in 16th century by Edward Horner or Thomas Horner, which we talked about. So apparently it was alternative in 17th century in partially demolished around 1780, but was restored by sir Edward Lutyens. Ian's in the 20th century. And that the house along with the garden walls has been designated as a grade one listed building and is closely associated with the adjacent church of Saint Andrew. And the gardens are also listed as a historical place in, on the register of historical parks and gardens of specific historic interest in England. So if you want to go to Somerset You can actually go see this manor. And I think that's really cool. Like I would want to go see this manor if I were ever in England, just because it might have a purported connection with this nursery rhyme, which I think tells you a little bit about how my brain works.  

Moving on from the historical aspect and underpinnings of "Little Jack Horner". Let's move on to talking about the nursery rhyme. So when I was doing the research on the Library of Congress, as well as other sites I found quite a number of recordings of "Little Jack Horner" and it was usually tied with "Little Bo Beep," and "Hey Diddle, Diddle." 

And it seems that there was a resurgence of these recordings or the popularity is live. Recording seems to have come from the earliest 20th century. And this really has to do, I think, with the publication of a and popularity of Mother Goose's Melodies and I found a number of audio recordings in the first one. I'm actually going to play two for you today. And the first one is from the record Mother Goose's Songs. 

And it was actually published in 1911, the soprano vocalist in this record is Elizabeth Wheeler. That's who you hear singing in this record. let's go ahead and play it for you now. 

  

 So it was a lovely soprano version of "Little Jack Horner". And I'll actually play the whole record for you as the outro. The second one I'll play is "Little Jack Horner" and it's from Little Wonder Records and unfortunately it does not give a date. However, I really suspect this is another one from the early 20th century, probably around the same time. The around the last recording. This is from Little Wonder Records  and we'll go ahead and play it now. 

  



There's a bit of a different version, upbeat male version, singing, "Little Jack Horner".  

Again, there really seems to have been a resurgence in publishing these songs and these melodies in the early 20th century. And I wonder too, if this is because records were probably easier to obtain an in the middle-class and now parents were looking for something to play their children were play as entertainment in the evenings. But that's more speculation. And I, I haven't had time to really delve into the research on why that might be. 

But to add to the blog for this week, I'm going to go ahead and upload a really neat document called "16 Mother Goose's Melodies" by Elizabeth Coleridge. And this was published in 1901. And it includes 16 nursery rhymes, including "Little Jack Horner", including "Little Miss Muffet""Sing a Song of Sixpence, "Hey Diddle, Diddle." And it's sheet music, which I think is really cool. This is early, very early 20th century sheet music. 

For these nursery rhymes, which you can play if you're really interested or see the musical score for. So again, this in a couple more images will be on the blog at atiskettasketpodcast.com. So please check it out. I try to include images as well as the audio recording of this podcast. Just so you can get an idea of what art looked like at this time, because again, I talk about. These beautiful block illustrations. And again, these are for children. And so you're going to see these beautiful, colorful illustrations. That accompanied a lot of these written nursery rhymes. And the scores, a lot of the scores had really beautiful illustrations as well. This one doesn't have the illustration in the scores, but it is very clear sheet music that you can play today from 1901. 

So please check it out. 

  



 What have we learned today? About "Little Jack Horner"? Well, I am really surprised at what I learned today, about "Little Jack Horner" and that is that it's likely a nursery rhyme from around the 15 hundreds. If it's referencing it, King Henry VIII.. And I really like to think that it does reference this Thomas Horner who deviously stole a deed to a Manor house from a pie of all things when it was being sent as a gift to the king. And again, I never know what I'm going to uncover when I do research for this podcast. And so that was a really fun tidbit. I did read a substantial piece from Opie and Opie, from "the Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Ryhmes," just because, well, first of all, I think that they can say things way more eloquently than I can. 

But also, I thought it was really important to note kind of these historical facts behind. This, the devious man, Thomas Horner. And we learned that if you were a nave during this time, your first name may very well have been named Jack. So we have also learned that the nursery rhyme itself really wasn't in publication until the 18th century where it Where it appeared in mother Goose's melody in 1765, as well as the melody, which was written by James William Elliott in the national nursery rhymes and nursery songs from 1870. And again, I referenced that quite a bit. And I think I will have to spend another podcast or two episodes talking about Mr. James William Elliott and his ability to write scores. He's right up there with A. H. Rosewig, when it comes to writing nursery melodies. We also know that its earliest written publication is probably referenced in Henry Carey's satire of namby pamby, which was published in 1725. 

We also know that it was a popular audio recording in the early 20th century with a number of audio recordings of which I've played two for you today. And I've included some very interesting score pieces for you to take a look at it on the blog. So overall, this was quite interesting episode because it has a deep, rich history in a probable event that happened. 

If there's anything you can take away from this episode is that apparently very important state documents were often ferried in baked goods. Who would have thought. But again, thank you for listening to this week's episode of A Tisket-Tasket Podcast. Again, I'm Gina and I've very much enjoyed talking about nursery rhymes . 

Please take a look at the blog at atiskettasketpodcast.com. And email me with your questions, concerns or comments at, at info@atiskettasketpodcast.com.. I look forward to hearing your feedback and I enjoy doing these podcast episodes. So if you would like to support me in what I do each week, feel free to check out my website and contains all the links in which you can monetarily help me pay for things like website hosting and software. 

But as always stay tuned next week, where I continue to talk about the weirdness of nursery rhymes.